thank you. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Project Upland. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Baron Emile Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. % I know the bottom image. Can be without star and ring. I suspect the gun is a Janssen. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. It is located just above the circle with ELG. By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Thanks so much. JavaScript is disabled. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Closset Louis Bernimolin Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Search. GWO, good condition. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Rich engraved. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! These might cursive as well. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! 1870-1898. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Berleur Guillaume All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Many thanxPS:. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. 4 0 obj Comblain Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Ever seen that? A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Ancion DD & Fils By Alain Daubresse. A "Greener" double? and an eagles head. - Galoppin Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Please note! Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. (copy right L.R. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . Beuret Frres Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Clment Charles Philibert Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. Andr M.J. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . 1899-2011 Modern Guns. Behr Jean jacques These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Can anybody shed some light here? Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. The Modern Shotgun. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Brancquaert Louis The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Bernard Lambert Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). 1840-1860. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Bastin Frres What about a lightning bolt with a star above? to share our findings by this means of communication. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Comblain Hubert Joseph If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Members . they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. Bayet Frres listed in alphabetical order. Broqua & Scholberg We have provided you If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. These firearms Wish I could be more helpful! The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Order this book online and pay it through Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. This will be an on going Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. thanks for the help so far. Quick Facts Four barrel . Board Of If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. Baltus - Wilmotte Colette Victor I'll test it very cautiously. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? determination. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. JavaScript is disabled. manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a (most sales were in the 1930s). Collard Henri - Roux Jacques It was mandatory post-1924. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Miscellaneous U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Testing the gun John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Proof The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. 1840-1860. It is was built using a very thick Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. HI, John. Seen The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Bronne Gustave visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, firearms. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. this book online and pay it through Paypal. Bouquin Ad )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Bertrand Joseph The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . Berleur Michel I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Thanks again for the help! There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Ancion Jacques & Cie Bertrand Antoine & Fils We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. or E.C. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Comblain H. J. Any idea what it all means? If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Jun 21, 2012. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Baker, David J. CLEMENT, J. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). Very helpfull once again. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. The Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Can you send me some, Ed? One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. to identify the manufacturer. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. . Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. OldGuns Newsletter . The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Colard Louis - Counet Lonard To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Bernard Victor & Cie What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Collette Lopold Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Misc. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. No maker's name at all. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Bertrand Antoine Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. It's complete. stream The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Bettonville - Fontaine Your help is appreciated. Counet - Genot significance or purpose. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Quite old. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Thanks! It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Burlet The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. Any info will help. Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. have a great day! I have pictures If you need them. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown.